Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulators

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jedfactor
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Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulators

Post by jedfactor » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:56 pm

Hi,

I was wondering how good the emulation is for virtual console N64 titles like Majora's Mask in comparison to other emulators like project64, mupen64, and cen64?

Since people have been able to crack the emulated wad files that contain a rom and emulator, has anyone managed to decrypt the emulators packed with the N64 roms to see how they work and how accurate they are?

Would this help with further development of N64 emulators?

Also on another note why don't emulator developers name there emulators after the official emulator codenames like project reality for an N64 emulator for example? only one I can think of is the dolphin emulator, is this due to copyright issues?
Thanks

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juef
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by juef » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:00 pm

If I remember and understood correctly, those emulators were not accurante in the sense that they contain many game-specific hacks. In other words, there basically is a different emulator for each game on the Virtual Console. Since emulators such as CEN64 aim for accuracy rather than just compatibility with the most popular games, there's not much to be learned.

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siggie
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by siggie » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:40 pm

jedfactor wrote:Hi,
Also on another note why don't emulator developers name there emulators after the official emulator codenames like project reality for an N64 emulator for example? only one I can think of is the dolphin emulator, is this due to copyright issues?
Thanks
Is Project Unreality close enough?

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jedfactor
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by jedfactor » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:17 pm

siggie wrote:
Is Project Unreality close enough?
:D

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jedfactor
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by jedfactor » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:25 pm

Project Reality, most exaggerated codename ever lol. Still wiiu games look as good as those 3D character renders I used to see in Nintendo instruction manuals which is pretty amazing when you think about it. Just took them a few more years to get there, wonder how good the games would have looked if N64 had higher res + CD format? would have killed the saturn and PS1.

Strange we have a gamecube/wii emulator that works better than than the N64 emulators, it's the same situation with the saturn and dreamcast.

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jedfactor
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by jedfactor » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:32 pm

Anyone know where there is a list of the official game id's for the N64 games, there is this site which is great info for wii/gamecube but doesn't have N64 game info.

http://www.gametdb.com/

For example RMGP01 - Super Mario Galaxy

Would this be the proper name for the rom file?

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MarathonMan
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by MarathonMan » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:13 pm

jedfactor wrote:Would this be the proper name for the rom file?
Use GoodN64, or the compatibility database when beannaich gets around to it: http://cen64.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=82

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Mizox
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by Mizox » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:49 pm

jedfactor wrote:Project Reality, most exaggerated codename ever lol. Still wiiu games look as good as those 3D character renders I used to see in Nintendo instruction manuals which is pretty amazing when you think about it. Just took them a few more years to get there, wonder how good the games would have looked if N64 had higher res + CD format? would have killed the saturn and PS1.

Strange we have a gamecube/wii emulator that works better than than the N64 emulators, it's the same situation with the saturn and dreamcast.
a couple of things:

first off... forcing the N64 to use high resolution for everything would have forced a decrease in game complexity. that power has to come from somewhere after all. and loading from a disc instead of a cartridge would have plagued the system with serious load time problems. many games took advantage of the cartridge for data streaming. which is a lot harder to do from a disc. sure you could have added more power and memory in order to compensate... but that translates into a higher price

as for emulation... not only has there been more demand to see the gamecube and wii emulated properly... their system architecture has a lot more in common with the modern CPU and GPU setup than the N64's does. making them a lot easier to emulate accurately

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Kerr Avon
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by Kerr Avon » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:48 pm

Mizox wrote:
...first off... forcing the N64 to use high resolution for everything would have forced a decrease in game complexity. that power has to come from somewhere after all. and loading from a disc instead of a cartridge would have plagued the system with serious load time problems. many games took advantage of the cartridge for data streaming. which is a lot harder to do from a disc. sure you could have added more power and memory in order to compensate... but that translates into a higher price
Cartridges are fantastic, being very reliable (unlike the "indestructible" (as they were advertised, when they first came out) CD format), having almost no loading times, and being able to house custom chips and other hardware (though the latter advatage wasn't really realised on the N64, except for game saving to the cartridge, and a few Japanese only games that* never seem to be mentioned anywhere**). In the Conker's Bad Fur Day Director's Commentary, they mention that if Banjo Kazooie had been in disc format, it wouldn't have had the music 'effects' it did, such as the music becoming dulller (as though heard through water) when Banjo is under water. Personally, I'm glad the N64 used cartridges.

On the other hand, though, it's certainly true that the limited space of the cartridge format did put off some (maybe many) potential developers (which might explain why there are so few RPGs on the N64), plus cartridges have the disadvantage that you didn't get game demos on the commercial magazines, unlike with the Playstation, since a CD costs next to nothing to make.

But a dedicated team of developers could do wonders with the limited space on a cartridge. And one thing about cartridges that is an advantage to me (others might disagree) is that they are too limited in space to allow Full Motion Video. I don't like FMV, as I think that cutscenes that are in a different graphical style from the game just serve to remove you from the immersion - I *much* prefer cutscenes to be rendered using the in-game graphics engine (which is the case on every N64 game I can think of off-hand, apart from Resident Evil 2), as there's no jarring difference between the quality of the cut-scenes and the in-game action.


BTW, if anyone's not seen the Director's Commentary then you should, it's very interesting, and not just about CBFD, they talk about other games, and the state of the industry both then (~2001) and now.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... V0vaSL4rHf




* One game had a real time clock, another had a microphone so you could talk to the game, and another game monitored your heart beat. There might have been others, I don't remember.


** Since no one ever talks about these games, not even hardcore N64 fanatics and collectors, this does tend to make me think that the games were at best forgettable, and at worst awful. I've never seen any of these games, and I'm not bothered at all.

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Zoinkity
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Re: Wii Virtual console emulation accuracy vs other emulator

Post by Zoinkity » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:19 pm

...and a few Japanese only games that never seem to be mentioned anywhere
The RTC was found in Doubutsu no Mori, better known internationally as the first in the Animal Crossing series. It was rereleased in Japan on GC with no real modification, then expanded and translated for international release. Amusingly Japanese gamers demanded they retranslate the expanded version and release it in Japan as well, which became Doubutsu no Mori+. Very notable game.

The microphone was released in the US and Japan, but not Europe. It's coupled with a voice recognition unit and used for (as far as I know) two released titles and one unreleased one: Hey You Pikachu, Mario Artist Studio, and (optionally) Densha de Go. Densha de Go also had an optional train control unit. It wasn't on-cart hardware though; the VRU connected to a controller port.

The heart monitor was used for the Japanese Tetris64, not the much more notorious H2O title. Oddly this game is entirely in english. As a point of curiosity, Tetris64 also accidentally compiled in some ELF files, and conjecture is that the guys at H2O knew about it. Pretty sure this also connected to a controller port.

As for on-cart hardware there was also a shogi(?) game that had a modem installed on it. They intended to use the one in the 64DD but pushed onto cartridge instead. It would use it to register your game results with some of the national boards in Japan, and chances are the system still works.

The very generalized nature of carts are the reason GameSharks work the way they do and made the newest generation of flashcarts possible. Directly connecting a PC to the console allows all sorts of mischief, though for the most part nobody has utilized it for more than a couple demos or some debuggery.

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