Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Discuss miscellaneous N64-related matter here.
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Nintendo Maniac 64
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Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:27 am

So you mean to tell me that rom dumps in the N64's native format uses the .z64 file extension because the .n64 file extension was already taken by something that didn't use the N64 native format?

And the worst of it is that another dumper that came out before the Mr. Backup Z64, the Doctor V64, also didn't use the native N64 format. Therefore if those .n64 dumps didn't exist, then any .n64 roms would have likely just been V64 dumps! (whether renamed or originally dumped with said file extension)

Oy freakin vay - now we're stuck with another specific file extension that doesn't actually match the system (like .smc).
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LuigiBlood
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by LuigiBlood » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:25 am

Say that to No-Intro, they're the worst in that regard for using *.n64 instead of *.v64.

(Just for that, GoodN64 > No-Intro)

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Snowstorm64
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Snowstorm64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:31 am

It's only a convention. You can just change the extension of all the files to .n64 and it still works.
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ShadowFX
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by ShadowFX » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:35 am

Snowstorm64 wrote:It's only a convention. You can just change the extension of all the files to .n64 and it still works.
Does that mean an emulator will check the internals of the ROM whether it's byteswapped or not, and not the extension? (this would make sense to me).
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Snowstorm64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:38 am

ShadowFX wrote: Does that mean an emulator will check the internals of the ROM whether it's byteswapped or not, and not the extension? (this would make sense to me).
Yes, CEN64 does this (because it wants only unbyteswapped ROMs), but others emulators don't care about this (or so I think).
Heck, you can even change it to any format like .exe, .nes or anything other, and it still works. :P But please, don't do this!
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teres
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by teres » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:53 am

lol, Windows users and their reliance on magic characters at the end of the filename... "rename that tee-eggs-tee to vee-bee-ess and suddanly yuo CAN RUN IT zomgwtfbbq"

I'm just glad N64 copiers didn't keep on adding random headers to everything like the SNES ones did.

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gamax92
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by gamax92 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:45 pm

Now I'm wondering what letter "eggs" is supposed to be :P

Though that crappy frontend I wrote for cen64 that I scrapped before the current one, could byteswap between all 24 mutations of a swapped n64 rom. :geek:

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teres
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by teres » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:12 pm

24 mutations? Dang. Do any of the copiers actually produce anything besides big- and little endian when dumping, or did someone go out of their way to f*ck things up extra throughly?

edit: assuming they dump the same format they read, the V64 produces interlaved (2143), the Z64 big endian (1234). Someone (the CD64 maybe?) seems to use 3412, no idea who uses 4321 (yet there's roms like that out there). No reason for other permutations to exist/be supported, really.

(oh and 'eggs' = x, as in renaming '.txt' to '.vbs')
Last edited by teres on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:21 pm

teres wrote:lol, Windows users and their reliance on magic characters at the end of the filename... "rename that tee-eggs-tee to vee-bee-ess and suddanly yuo CAN RUN IT zomgwtfbbq"
I commonly play video files that end in non-legit video extensions like .part and .dtapart in programs like MPC-HC and VLC all the time thank you very much.

Please don't assume things about other people.


On a less critical note, this does beg the question - if each different format didn't have their own file extension, then how the heck would a person tell them apart without trial & error or using a program to actually read what the file's contents are? Like how does one know if you have a non-V64 .n64 rom or a No-Intro V64 rom that's been renamed to .n64 without using a hex editor?
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Snowstorm64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:22 pm

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote: On a less critical note, this does beg the question - if each different format didn't have their own file extension, then how the heck would a person tell them apart without trial & error or using a program to actually read what the file's contents are? Like how does one know if you have a non-V64 .n64 rom or a No-Intro V64 rom that's been renamed to .n64 without using a hex editor?
You don't. It's true that file extension helps to identify a file, but it's not affidable and it is just a convention like I said before, meaning that it tells the file has that set of characteristics, as commonly defined by the extension, but in fact it doesn't always do, because everyone can use that extension for anything that may be partially or in no way related to it. It's wrong to instantly assume that a file is a byteswapped N64 ROM because its file extension says so.
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Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:26 pm

Snowstorm64 wrote:It's wrong to instantly assume that a file is a byteswapped N64 ROM because its file extension says so.
But by this logic, woulldn't it also be wrong to assume a store-person's name just because their nametag says so?
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Snowstorm64 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:37 pm

A name tag, in that case, would be regulated by the store's policy, and thus has to be truthful. The extension of a file can be changed by anyone, and isn't regulated by anything, it has the same value that can have a name tag on a stranger you meet walking down the street: not regulated, self made, not reliable.
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teres
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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by teres » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:18 pm

...oh and before someone goes "I'll just look at the file contents instead to find the format" now - that can be surprisingly hard too. There was an entertaining talk about that at 31c3.

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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by beannaich » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:09 am

File extensions should be based on MIME types, and registered through a central authority. Plain and simple.

EDIT: And the extension for a file should be stored in the file system, so all you see is "README" and the FS would show: {"README", "text/x-markdown"}

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Re: Tiny rant on N64 file formats

Post by Zoinkity » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:09 pm

If you don't use a tool:
1) Open ROM in hex editor.
2) if the second byte is 0x80 instead of the first, byteswap.

The V64s were targetting intel processors. It made sense for them dumping byteswapped because of what they are (blatant piracy tools that were so good at what they did even official companies found them useful). It's really the fault of the pirates not putting everything in the right order.

The .n64 extension was used in some of the devtools, such as the Monegi Multi-Viewer. Files generated by those tools were always big-endian.

I get a bit opinionated when it comes to the naming conventions used by the big NAMER groups. That said, they should all have the good sense to finally conform to big-endian files on a big-endian system.

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